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#1 07-02-2008 08:09 PM

Seabird
New lease
From: The Crucible
Registered: 07-28-2003
Posts: 10214
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Expensive gas? Not so NIMBY anymore, are we... LOL!

I predicted this several weeks ago. Actually I've been predicting this for a couple of years. A few people disagreed with me. It seems that the desire to drive wherever one wants, whenever one wants, and to be able to afford groceries might actually be a little more important than a pristine ocean view sans oil rigs or refineries...

From the Pew Research Center:
http://people-press.org/report/433/gas-prices

July 1, 2008
As Gas Prices Pinch, Support for Energy Exploration Rises
More Favor Drilling in ANWR

Overview

Amid record gas prices, public support for greater energy exploration is spiking. Compared with just a few months ago, many more Americans are giving higher priority to more energy exploration, rather than more conservation. An increasing proportion also says that developing new sources of energy - rather than protecting the environment - is the more important national priority.
Figure

The latest nationwide survey by the Pew Research Center for the People & the Press, conducted June 18-29 among 2,004 adults, also finds that half of Americans now support drilling in Alaska's Arctic National Wildlife Refuge, up from 42% in February.

The public's changing energy priorities are most evident in the growing percentage that views increased energy exploration - including mining and drilling, as well as the construction of new power plants - as a more important priority for energy policy than increased conservation and regulation. Nearly half (47%) now rates energy exploration as the more important priority, up from 35% in February. The proportion saying it is more important to increase energy conservation and regulation has declined by 10 points (from 55% to 45%).

In surveys dating to 2001, majorities or pluralities had consistently said that greater energy conservation and regulation on energy use and prices was more important than increased energy exploration.
Partisan Gap over Energy Exploration Disappears

Much of the increase in support for energy exploration has come among groups that previously viewed this as a less important priority than energy conservation - young people, liberals, independents, Democrats, women and people who have attended college.

Fully half of people ages 18 to 29 (51%) now say expanding energy exploration is a more important priority for energy policy than increasing energy conservation and regulation; only about a quarter of young people (26%) expressed this view in February. The proportion of liberals who say expanded energy exploration is the more important priority also has doubled (from 22% to 45%).

The gender gap in attitudes about whether greater exploration or greater conservation is the more important priority has disappeared, as women have become much more supportive of expanded exploration (up 18 points).

Similarly, more independents (19 points) and Democrats (16 points) view increased energy exploration as the more important priority. About the same proportions of Democrats (46%) and Republicans (43%) now say expanded exploration, rather than increased conservation, should take precedence; in February, far more Republicans than Democrats expressed this view.

In contrast with overall opinions about energy exploration, views about drilling for oil and gas in ANWR remain politically divided. As was the case in February, about twice as many Republicans as Democrats favor drilling in ANWR (75% vs. 36%). Support for oil and gas drilling in the Alaska wildlife refuge has increased sharply among Republicans (12 points), but only modestly among Democrats (five points).

Support for ANWR energy drilling has increased across age groups, but Americans ages 65 and older continue to support this at much higher levels than do those younger than 30 (62% vs. 37%). More women favor ANWR drilling than in February, but women continue to be less supportive of drilling for oil and gas in the Alaska wildlife refuge than men (45% vs. 56%).

Public opinion about the war in Iraq has changed little over the past few months. A narrow majority (52%) says that the U.S. military effort is not going well; 44% say things in Iraq are going very or fairly well. That is identical to the balance of opinion in April; in February, a slightly greater percentage (48%) said things were going well in Iraq.

The public also remains divided about whether to bring home U.S. troops as soon as possible (52%), or keep them there until the country is stabilized (43%). As in previous surveys, most of those who support a troop withdrawal from Iraq say it should gradual rather than immediate (35% gradual vs. 16% immediate).

By 50% to 42%, more Americans believe that the United States will succeed, rather than fail, in achieving its goals in Iraq. In April, opinion about whether the United States will succeed was a bit more closely divided (47% definitely/probably succeed vs. 46% definitely/probably fail).

As has been the case since October 2007, a majority of Americans (55%) believe the United States made the wrong decision in using military force in Iraq. Just 39% say the war was the right decision.

Last edited by Seabird (07-02-2008 08:10 PM)


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#2 07-02-2008 08:18 PM

zukiphile
"Aaaaaah; Bach!"
Registered: 08-08-2003
Posts: 11381
Karma: 1113

Re: Expensive gas? Not so NIMBY anymore, are we... LOL!

OMG!  WE CAN'T DRILL OUR WAY OUT OF THIS PROBLEM, EARTH RAPER!

THE ONLY SOLUTION IS HARSHER SENTENCING FOR SUV DRIVERS WHO SUCK UP ALL THE GAS I COULD BE USING IN MY TRACK CAR.  /vortex rant.


"Atheism - the religion devoted to the worship of one's own smug sense of superiority."   - Stephen Colbert

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#3 07-02-2008 08:36 PM

2.FOH.
Misogynist sock puppet
From: the Iraq such as Africa
Registered: 07-25-2003
Posts: 10781
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Re: Expensive gas? Not so NIMBY anymore, are we... LOL!

More drilling won't help.

We need to prosecute the speculators......& APPLY STRICTER SENTENCES ON SUV
DRIVERS.


"Dude, I'm Asian and Jewish.  The only
horse I'm hung like is My Little Pony." ~ 4nonymous

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#4 07-02-2008 08:42 PM

Seabird
New lease
From: The Crucible
Registered: 07-28-2003
Posts: 10214
Karma: 585

Re: Expensive gas? Not so NIMBY anymore, are we... LOL!

Where's chiscot been? He needs to get in here and take his e-thumping like a man.


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#5 07-02-2008 08:46 PM

zukiphile
"Aaaaaah; Bach!"
Registered: 08-08-2003
Posts: 11381
Karma: 1113

Re: Expensive gas? Not so NIMBY anymore, are we... LOL!

2.FOH. wrote:

...the speculators.....

So if the speculators weigh the same as a duck.....

BURN HER!!!!!

ETA - I do enjoy the contradiction of the hairy legged, coop shopping pacifists who simultaneously demand that oil exploration and development not proceed because they don't think increasing use is sustainable (by implication constricting supply), the very same people who complain that oil companies screw people by charging prices that reflect constrictions in supply.


"Atheism - the religion devoted to the worship of one's own smug sense of superiority."   - Stephen Colbert

"This place is astounding."  -   Confused_by_everything.

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#6 07-02-2008 08:59 PM

Seabird
New lease
From: The Crucible
Registered: 07-28-2003
Posts: 10214
Karma: 585

Re: Expensive gas? Not so NIMBY anymore, are we... LOL!

That's the beauty of the conspiracy, man. No one ever believes it because the only people who are brave enough and smart enough to get it, don't make any sense. You see?...


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#7 07-02-2008 09:01 PM

zukiphile
"Aaaaaah; Bach!"
Registered: 08-08-2003
Posts: 11381
Karma: 1113

Re: Expensive gas? Not so NIMBY anymore, are we... LOL!

Seabird wrote:

That's the beauty of the conspiracy, man. No one ever believes it because the only people who are brave enough and smart enough to get it, don't make any sense. You see?...

No. I am sheeple.  I am blind.  I only like free markets because I can't see how they are used to oppress me.


"Atheism - the religion devoted to the worship of one's own smug sense of superiority."   - Stephen Colbert

"This place is astounding."  -   Confused_by_everything.

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#8 07-02-2008 09:01 PM

Mexican Mafia
L.A. Costal Beach Patrol
Registered: 08-02-2006
Posts: 1675
Karma: 127

Re: Expensive gas? Not so NIMBY anymore, are we... LOL!

last I checked the ANWR wasn't really anywhere near my "backyard"

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#9 07-02-2008 09:10 PM

Seabird
New lease
From: The Crucible
Registered: 07-28-2003
Posts: 10214
Karma: 585

Re: Expensive gas? Not so NIMBY anymore, are we... LOL!

Fuggabuncha ANWR. I'm talking Eastern GOM baby! I want a paid company transfer to the Florida Gulf Coast! AHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!


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#10 07-02-2008 09:11 PM

Thundersnow
sean
Registered: 08-14-2004
Posts: 2623
Karma: 77

Re: Expensive gas? Not so NIMBY anymore, are we... LOL!

How exactly is drilling ANWR going to lower the price of gas? What are the reserves beneath the Gulf? Changing our living styles is ultimately necessary.

Last edited by Thundersnow (07-02-2008 09:12 PM)


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#11 07-02-2008 09:16 PM

maxor
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From: AZ
Registered: 04-19-1983
Posts: 8130
Karma: 3755

Re: Expensive gas? Not so NIMBY anymore, are we... LOL!

zukiphile wrote:

2.FOH. wrote:

...the speculators.....

So if the speculators weigh the same as a duck.....

BURN HER!!!!!

ETA - I do enjoy the contradiction of the hairy legged, coop shopping pacifists who simultaneously demand that oil exploration and development not proceed because they don't think increasing use is sustainable (by implication constricting supply), the very same people who complain that oil companies screw people by charging prices that reflect constrictions in supply.

Speculators turned my manhood into a contract... and they all shorted it. sad

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#12 07-02-2008 09:18 PM

maxor
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From: AZ
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Re: Expensive gas? Not so NIMBY anymore, are we... LOL!

Thundersnow wrote:

How exactly is drilling ANWR going to lower the price of gas? What are the reserves beneath the Gulf? Changing our living styles is ultimately necessary.

If congress opened up all of the "off limits" areas to drilling the price of oil would drop even though no oil has been pumped.

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#13 07-02-2008 09:33 PM

Thundersnow
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Posts: 2623
Karma: 77

Re: Expensive gas? Not so NIMBY anymore, are we... LOL!

Is that a proven fact? Oil countries agreeing to pump more has done nothing. SPeculators have flocked to commodities.


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#14 07-02-2008 09:42 PM

zukiphile
"Aaaaaah; Bach!"
Registered: 08-08-2003
Posts: 11381
Karma: 1113

Re: Expensive gas? Not so NIMBY anymore, are we... LOL!

Thundersnow wrote:

How exactly is drilling ANWR going to lower the price of gas?

The current price of oil reflects speculation that demand will increase greatly even though large reserves are not available to meet any of that increased demand. 

At $80usd a barrel, we have likely, but not proven, reserves in the western hemisphere that are good for between 60 and 120 years of consumption at the current rate.  Tap into that and people will bet on a lower price in the future which can relieve the contract price now as well.


"Atheism - the religion devoted to the worship of one's own smug sense of superiority."   - Stephen Colbert

"This place is astounding."  -   Confused_by_everything.

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#15 07-02-2008 09:50 PM

Thundersnow
sean
Registered: 08-14-2004
Posts: 2623
Karma: 77

Re: Expensive gas? Not so NIMBY anymore, are we... LOL!

How many barrels a day? Everything I have read has shown negligible influences. I have read a fair amount and very few studies have shown any that any difference will be made. ALtering lifestyles is the best option. If people can not afford to drive or live in this climate, it signals that they have been living above their means. Besides which, all of anwr should be a strategic reserve for our military.


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#16 07-02-2008 09:53 PM

maxor
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From: AZ
Registered: 04-19-1983
Posts: 8130
Karma: 3755

Re: Expensive gas? Not so NIMBY anymore, are we... LOL!

Thundersnow wrote:

Is that a proven fact? Oil countries agreeing to pump more has done nothing. SPeculators have flocked to commodities.

The only oil country that said they were going to pump more oil was Saudi Arabia and that was overshadowed by growing concerns of problems in Nigeria, then a few days later Libya comes out with bad news of their own.

Were there other instances of oil producing countries saying they were going to pump more?

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#17 07-02-2008 09:59 PM

zukiphile
"Aaaaaah; Bach!"
Registered: 08-08-2003
Posts: 11381
Karma: 1113

Re: Expensive gas? Not so NIMBY anymore, are we... LOL!

Thundersnow wrote:

How many barrels a day?

CBird can correct me, but I don't think you typically know the daily output until you drill.  ANWR is but one part of the western resource puzzle.  Artificially limiting the supply of a resource, which is what we do now, will necessarily increase the price.  Do we agree on that?

If you want ANWR as a strategic reserve for the military, not drilling in it is a poor plan.  From the time they realise they need it and begin drilling to the time the oil starts flowing is how many years?  This doesn't even reach the issue of whether it is smart to locate a national security reserve beyond the lower 48.

In any event, if you believe ANWR is insubstantial, it wouldn't make much of a military reserve.


"Atheism - the religion devoted to the worship of one's own smug sense of superiority."   - Stephen Colbert

"This place is astounding."  -   Confused_by_everything.

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#18 07-02-2008 10:27 PM

maxor
Administrator
From: AZ
Registered: 04-19-1983
Posts: 8130
Karma: 3755

Re: Expensive gas? Not so NIMBY anymore, are we... LOL!

Thundersnow wrote:

How many barrels a day? Everything I have read has shown negligible influences. I have read a fair amount and very few studies have shown any that any difference will be made. ALtering lifestyles is the best option. If people can not afford to drive or live in this climate, it signals that they have been living above their means. Besides which, all of anwr should be a strategic reserve for our military.

There would need to be further exploration to determine how much oil is out there and then to determine how much we could pump on a daily basis. But since nobody's been able to go out and look since the 70's there aren't accurate numbers.

If we could pump another million barrels of oil a day domestically that would be a 20% increase and would help out a lot.

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#19 07-02-2008 10:53 PM

Qwinn
Typical White Person
From: Atop a pile of dead witches
Registered: 03-16-2005
Posts: 5787
Karma: 335

Re: Expensive gas? Not so NIMBY anymore, are we... LOL!

Besides which, all of anwr should be a strategic reserve for our military.

Right.  Let's not drill there until our military desperately needs it, at which point they'll only have to wait 10 years to get any of it.

Qwinn


"The vice of capitalism is that there is an unequal share of the blessings; the virtue of socialism is that there is an equal share of the misery."  -Sir Winston Churchill, British statesman (1874-1965)

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#20 07-02-2008 11:01 PM

glfredrick
Copier guy - Makin' copies...!
From: Louisville, KY
Registered: 10-27-2004
Posts: 2639
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Re: Expensive gas? Not so NIMBY anymore, are we... LOL!

2.FOH. wrote:

More drilling won't help.

We need to prosecute the speculators......& APPLY STRICTER SENTENCES ON SUV
DRIVERS.

Actually, the mere announcement that America will flood the market with oil will cancel the speculators.  Of course, there are those pesky SUV drivers.  They dropped one little SUV on Mars, and the ice cap started melting.  Obviously, SUV's are a tool of the debil...


Let no one say that I have said nothing new; the arrangement of the subject is new. When we play tennis, we both play with the same ball, but one of us places it better.
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#21 07-02-2008 11:16 PM

Thundersnow
sean
Registered: 08-14-2004
Posts: 2623
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Re: Expensive gas? Not so NIMBY anymore, are we... LOL!

maxor wrote:

Thundersnow wrote:

Is that a proven fact? Oil countries agreeing to pump more has done nothing. SPeculators have flocked to commodities.

The only oil country that said they were going to pump more oil was Saudi Arabia and that was overshadowed by growing concerns of problems in Nigeria, then a few days later Libya comes out with bad news of their own.

Were there other instances of oil producing countries saying they were going to pump more?

I believe Canada as well. Our top two countries.


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#22 07-02-2008 11:20 PM

Thundersnow
sean
Registered: 08-14-2004
Posts: 2623
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Re: Expensive gas? Not so NIMBY anymore, are we... LOL!

zukiphile wrote:

CBird can correct me, but I don't think you typically know the daily output until you drill.

If this is the case, then we are paying people a lot of money to do nothing.

ANWR is but one part of the western resource puzzle.  Artificially limiting the supply of a resource, which is what we do now, will necessarily increase the price.  Do we agree on that?

Yes, however oil is a global commodity. Demand is said to outstrip supply, so any marginal increase in supply will be outstripped by demand. We can not specify alaska oil for the US. Cost will be unaffected. If there is plenty of oil, and supply is sufficient, then we must reign in speculators through regulation rather than pumping oil.

If you want ANWR as a strategic reserve for the military, not drilling in it is a poor plan.  From the time they realise they need it and begin drilling to the time the oil starts flowing is how many years?  This doesn't even reach the issue of whether it is smart to locate a national security reserve beyond the lower 48.

In any event, if you believe ANWR is insubstantial, it wouldn't make much of a military reserve.

I am not stating that it should not be tapped. If it is, then it absolutely must remain a strategic reserve for the military. Unfortunately, politicians will not be able to keep there hands off of the cookie jar. Therefore it would be best to leave it a lone.


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#23 07-02-2008 11:21 PM

Thundersnow
sean
Registered: 08-14-2004
Posts: 2623
Karma: 77

Re: Expensive gas? Not so NIMBY anymore, are we... LOL!

maxor wrote:

If we could pump another million barrels of oil a day domestically that would be a 20% increase and would help out a lot.

I add this with the non linear aspect of oil's supply and demand issues. It is not a pump more=cheaper fuel problem. Oil co's would like to paint it that way however.


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#24 07-02-2008 11:22 PM

Thundersnow
sean
Registered: 08-14-2004
Posts: 2623
Karma: 77

Re: Expensive gas? Not so NIMBY anymore, are we... LOL!

Qwinn wrote:

Besides which, all of anwr should be a strategic reserve for our military.

Right.  Let's not drill there until our military desperately needs it, at which point they'll only have to wait 10 years to get any of it.

Qwinn

Are you suggesting that it will take ten years to drill anwr? If that is the case, then there is no reason to begin pumping. Alternative fuels are our best solution.


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#25 07-02-2008 11:24 PM

Thundersnow
sean
Registered: 08-14-2004
Posts: 2623
Karma: 77

Re: Expensive gas? Not so NIMBY anymore, are we... LOL!

glfredrick wrote:

Actually, the mere announcement that America will flood the market with oil will cancel the speculators.  Of course, there are those pesky SUV drivers.  They dropped one little SUV on Mars, and the ice cap started melting.  Obviously, SUV's are a tool of the debil...

America will not be able to flood the market with oil regardless.


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