News and Politics Forum

Veritas wrote:

Irate parents said a religious education teacher at the Alsager High School in England told students to wear Muslim headgear during a lesson on Tuesday. "But if Muslims were asked to go to church on Sunday and take Holy Communion, there would be war," the grandfather of one of the students said.

The two boys belong to a class that includes 11- to 12-year-olds, and after their refusal to participate they were given detention, the story says.

In India and Pakistan, muslim parents who can afford it send their children to RC and episco boarding schools.  In the prior generation all students were required to recite the Lord's prayer and were caned if discovered in muslim prayer in their rooms.  I don't think the caning for prayer is done any longer.

I wouldn't think so.

The more I consider this, the less outrageous I find it.

It certainly rubs american 1st Am/free exercise sensibilities the wrong way, but they don't have that principle.  On the contrary, Blair had to wait to become RC until after his stint as PM.

If your instructor issues a direction that offends your religious or political sensibilities, then tell him it does, and take the detention.  Don't want a telephone directory with a puppy on the cover?  Then rip the cover off and STFU.

We read about lots of obsequious accommodation toward and mishandling of the UK's muslim population, but this doesn't strike me as an example of it.

AC wrote:

That being said, I have to wonder why it was deemed necessary for the students to go through the process of praying vs. having it demonstrated before them.

I'd say that is a defensible pedagogic choice (learni9ng by engaging in activity rather than passively viewing it), but that we would certainly expect some sort of warning for and permission slip from parents, the idea being that the schools are here to serve an educational demand from parents.

I don't know what UK government school culture is, but I do understand that there are many educational cultures in which parental input is unwelcome.

I don't like the idea of a child pretending to engage in religious practice not his own, but I don't think I know enough about this circumstance to evaluate it thoroughly.

I can imagine limits to that sort of engaged learning; it would seem gratuitous to manipulate religious jews or muslims to eat pork to learn about cultures that do.

AC wrote:

I've headed down a much more hypothetical road in this thread and I understand if you're not going my way

I don't mind kicking it around.  What do you propose?

AC wrote:

For example, there are a myriad number of cultural/religious tenets where limited demonstrations would be deemed more than adequate (if not preferable) for multicultural diversity teachings.

I imagine that there are many things objectionable in many cultures and religions.  I don't think an undue concern with conforming civil practice to them is healthy.

AC wrote:

zukiphile wrote:

We read about lots of obsequious accommodation toward and mishandling of the UK's muslim population, but this doesn't strike me as an example of it.

Agreed, and even a more cursory look into the puppy incident left me with the impression that some pretty selective reporting was used to sensationalize a story with un-sensational roots.

That being said, I have to wonder why it was deemed necessary for the students to go through the process of praying vs. having it demonstrated before them.

In reading over the posts on this topic, I would be most comfortable with ^^^^.

I see great value in ACCURATELY portraying the fact that the world has many different religions, and that those belief systems DO drive worldviews.  I get sort of uncomfortable when we ask children (outside of direct parental oversight) to actually PARTICIPATE with the different various religions.  Seeing examples by practitioners, even visiting their various temples, mosques, churches, etc., is a valuable educational tool, but to force prayer, bowing before some deity, etc., goes beyond education to indoctrination.

Aside from certain events being played up my problem with such events is not that kids are being taught about, or even participating in staged aspects of religious services.  As said, it can be a tool to help bring the lesson home. 

I recall a school in VA IIRC a couple of years ago having students dress in traditional clothing, pray five times a day toward Mecca, even abstain from port for 30 days, etc. as part of a lesson on Islam. 

It bothered me because I can only imagine the outcry if Muslim students were made to wear a crucifix, pray the Stations of The Cross and take communion.  Not only would there be seething from certain Islamic groups, but how many of the same PC types who applaud the idea of participating in other religions' activities to "gain understanding" would also suddenly see it as Christianity being forced on non-Christians? 

If both could be done with equal treatment I have no issue.  Sadly I think it would not happen that way.

When I was in elementary school, we experienced other cultures/religions in class. Our community had a lot of Jews in it, so we all got to play dreidel, light menorahs and eat some traditional foods. In fact, we even made our own dreidels out of clay, to be used in the games later.

We did not read from the torah/talmud, nor don any religious vestments or engage in prayer, mock or otherwise.

It was pretty harmless, I think.

I would have been uncomfortable crossing that line from cultural practice into religious practice, and I think it's a reasonable distinction to make.

Asking students to pretend-pray to a deity in which they do not believe is insulting to the religion being "taught" as well as an offensive and unwelcome infringement on the beliefs of the student.

zukiphile wrote:

glfredrick wrote:

...but to force prayer, bowing before some deity, etc., goes beyond education to indoctrination.

That would be a step beyond the facts of the story if I read it correctly.

I am conscious of our american baggage on these points.  A friend from Bombay says christians take their hindu and muslim friends to Christmas services.  Sounds a bit more relaxed in some ways.

From the story posted above:

Two boys were punished this week for refusing to kneel on prayer mats and worship Allah during a class demonstration on Islam, the Daily Mail reported.

I've read about 20 other sources on this story.  They all read similarly.

As far as visiting or checking out other religions, I do that regularly, and I teach accurately and honestly about other religions when that is my role.  There is nothing at all to gain from mis-representing any particular religion or worldview.  Each will either stand or fail on its own coherence, representation of reality, and ability to pursue without borrowing from others, and if they cannot, then those that realize that will leave on their own accord.  No coercion needed.

All I object to is for people (again, outside parental oversight) being MADE to practice some other world religion for the sake (purportedly) of education.  That crosses a line.  Take a field trip, visit, watch, etc., but to actively participate is a whole other thing.

zukiphile wrote:

glfredrick wrote:

Two boys were punished this week for refusing to kneel on prayer mats and worship Allah during a class demonstration on Islam, the Daily Mail reported.

I sit corrected.

My sense is that mimicking a muslim on a prayer rug is something less than actual worship.

True that... One can go through all the motions of ritual without holding a single tenet in their heart -- something we Christians often say of some of our own camp on occaision.  Yet, I'm not convinced that the exercise needed to go to that level.  Just show a prayer rug and a picture of Muslims worshipping and praying.  That ought to suffice -- unless, of course -- the intended goal of the teacher was to begin the indoctrination.

My sense is that mimicking a muslim on a prayer rug is something less than actual worship.

True, but even going through the motions of such an act could very well go very much contrary to someone's religious beliefs.  Hell, I'm pretty sure my mother would literally prefer to be shot dead than do that kind of "mimicking".  Considering some of the things people believe they can get "conscientious exceptions" for, I can't imagine why this wouldn't qualify.  To actually -punish- someone for not going through with it and intoning words of worship to what they consider a false deity seems completely disrespectful to the student's belief systems to me.

I mean, no one's arguing to -force- atheists to say the words "Under God" in the Pledge, are they?  Why is this any different?

(Then there's the issue that there is at least one prayer that Muslims consider to -make- you a Muslim - that is, you say this prayer, it is treated as a solemn vow.  Henceforth, you are considered to be a Muslim, and if you don't stick with it, you're considered an apostate.  There was at least one situation where a similar event  occurred where it -was-, believe it or not, that prayer.)

Qwinn

Last edited by Qwinn (07-10-2008 10:17 PM)

dgm wrote:

Veritas wrote:

dgm wrote:

...eat some traditional foods.

If they made you eat any of this puke I would sue them for torture.

I must be part Jew. I actually don't mind Gefilte fish. The aspic it's stored in is disgusting though.

I am and hate the crap big time.  Then again any semitic roots go back to before 1880 when my great grandpa got off the boat and fell in love with an Irish Catholic girl who just got off another boat.  Converted to the Church before any of his kids were born.  Mom had a few problems in college.  She made friends with a few people who assumed by her last name, Kaplan, that she was Jewish.  When they found out she was a very devout Catholic they turned their backs on her...  Shame, every religion has its share of assholes.