News and Politics Forum

Charles Taylor wrote:

MC Escher wrote:

Veritas wrote:

What would you do if you were in charge?

As long as we're in fantasy land, where I can issue fiats and have them obeyed:


1) Time to switch over E85 Ethanol production to something like switchgrass or hemp. Any biomass that is more efficient than corn. Maybe using corn was a necessary evil to "prime the pump" and get the ball rolling; but it's rolling now.
Full tax CREDIT for all conversion costs, up to the limits of a company's tax obligation for the year in which the credit is being used. Three year max use of conversion credits.
Standard tax deductions for the following 7 years.


2) Set goal of at least one E85 pump into every zip code.
Same tax deal on infrastructure and deployment costs.


3) Get E85 optimized (NOT Flex Fuel) vehicles on the road.
a. Any vehicle that runs exclusively on E85 is eligible for exemption from CAFE standards; Manufacturer's choice.
b. If a manufacturer has more than one car line (GM = Caddy, Buick, Chevy, etc.), it may add 1mpg to their CAFE score for EACH line that offers an E85 exclusive vehicle.
c. 3 year tax holiday for each new E85 vehicle introduced for the next 10 years. If you introduce 7 new models OR 7 old models with new E85 exclusive engines in the next 10 years; EVERY E85 engined version of that car sold is tax free for the manufacturer is tax free for three years from the day the first model is delivered.


4) Introduce Tax Incentive Program similar in nature to the ones already mentioned and intended to divorce the internal combustion engine from the motive force of a vehicle in a similar manner to which Diesel/Electric Locomotives are really electric trains that carry their own generators.

Call it the "True Hybrid" program.

Define a "True Hybrid" as a vehicle meeting these requirements:
1. It has a generator,
2. It has an electrical storage capacity,
3. In has an Electric Motor or Motors to drive the car, and;
4. It can be run exclusively on either "Plug In" recharges or "Normal Fill-Ups"; at the owner's discretion.



It is my belief that by giving dramatic incentives of that type to the business world that within 10 years we would have a thriving privately owned E85 fleet that would be on it's way to completely replacing the pure gasoline engine within a single generation. (25 years)
(Complete replacement being defined in this case as anything less than 10% of the nationwide privately owned fleet still running on pure gasoline.)

Need more forecasts/models on the effect of large scale, long term E85 production on global food prices before I'm sold.

Two things:

1) The myth that current ethanol productionhas affected food prices is just that, a myth. In the first place, they don't use sweet corn; they use feed cord. Furthermore, the process of producing alcohol with it doesn't destroy it's ability to feed animals and the leftover is in fact processed into animal food.

2) I was advocating switching to a different biomass. Not because feed corn doesn't work or causes people to starve; it's because it's simply not particularly efficient as a biomass for ethanol production.

MC Escher wrote:

1) The myth that current ethanol productionhas affected food prices is just that, a myth. In the first place, they don't use sweet corn; they use feed cord. Furthermore, the process of producing alcohol with it doesn't destroy it's ability to feed animals and the leftover is in fact processed into animal food.

I don't doubt that ethanol has little if anything to do with the current rises in food prices (that would predominately be due to transportation costs).  I guess my question is, is there any point, at which US domestic agriculture (perhaps even in addition to Brazil) will have trouble supporting the fuel demands of motorists on E85?

Is it truly a long term solution?  I haven't seen anything thats convinced me that it is yet.  I do believe however, that the long term solution will involve more infrastructure changes than just fuel for commercial vehicles, it's probably going to involve a change in our state of mind when it comes to transportation, where and how we live, and even how we develop cities.

Last edited by Charles Taylor (07-09-2008 10:28 PM)

MC Escher wrote:

Charles Taylor wrote:

Is it truly a long term solution?  I haven't seen anything thats convinced me that it is yet.

If a fuel source that we can produce out of pretty much anything that can rot is NOT a long term solution; then I would have to wonder what would be.

I'm referring to the process we use to produce ethanol today.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but E85 you buy in the states is produced by and large from corn grown in the mid-west.  Roughly 56 lbs to harness roughly 3 gallons.

Last edited by Charles Taylor (07-09-2008 10:34 PM)

Unicorn Farts FTW.

Charles Taylor wrote:

MC Escher wrote:

Charles Taylor wrote:

Is it truly a long term solution?  I haven't seen anything thats convinced me that it is yet.

If a fuel source that we can produce out of pretty much anything that can rot is NOT a long term solution; then I would have to wonder what would be.

I'm referring to the process we use to produce ethanol today.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but E85 you buy in the states is produced by and large from corn grown in the mid-west.  Roughly 56 lbs to harness roughly 3 gallons.

OK, for the THIRD FUCKING TIME....

You know what? Never mind. Re-read my first post, or don't.

I've had my fill of morons for this month. Hell, for this fucking LIFETIME.


The day I get diagnosed with a terminal illness, a LOT of people are going to die.

Peter wrote:

MC Escher wrote:

The day I get diagnosed with a terminal illness, a LOT of people are going to die.

Like Corn Farmers?

Do you know how much corn they use just to produce 3 gallons of ethanol?

I don't know how you can stand behind corn based ethanol knowing that.

I bet when you visit the monkey cages at the zoo, you fling back.

maxor wrote:

AC wrote:

I suggest anyone unfamiliar with biofuel as an alternative fuel for the ICE research the potential of algae-based oils and other sources. Besides, who ever said we need to replace oil with any one alternative?

I'm interested to see what type of bio fuel we could produce from all of the biomass in the oceans, or what type of bio mass we could quickly produce from the oceans.

You mean like whale oil?

I think the Japanese are way ahead of us with that technology.

Seriously, though, with all the predicted excess CO2 and warmer sea temps, I gotta believe there's some amazing ocean farming potential in our future.

MC Escher wrote:

Charles Taylor wrote:

MC Escher wrote:

If a fuel source that we can produce out of pretty much anything that can rot is NOT a long term solution; then I would have to wonder what would be.

I'm referring to the process we use to produce ethanol today.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but E85 you buy in the states is produced by and large from corn grown in the mid-west.  Roughly 56 lbs to harness roughly 3 gallons.

OK, for the THIRD FUCKING TIME....

You know what? Never mind. Re-read my first post, or don't.

I've had my fill of morons for this month. Hell, for this fucking LIFETIME.


The day I get diagnosed with a terminal illness, a LOT of people are going to die.

why not just go away for a while...  It worked over at Pirate...  :>)

AC wrote:

2.FOH. wrote:

AC wrote:

You mean like whale oil?

FWIW, I've read that baby seal oil burns cleaner.

Yeah, but they provide less bang for the buck.

Well, once it's refined, yes.

...but getting it is half the fun.

Federally guaranteed loans for infrastructure investment to harvest Canadian oil shale.  Short term effect: undercut the oil speculators driving up the prices.  Long term effects: Either get oil back down towards $10/barrel, or if the Saudi's undercut the investment in oil shale by selling their oil for $5/barrel, we get gas for 25 cents/gallon again, plus a tax to pay for the federal guarantee's losses.

Charles Taylor wrote:

maxor wrote:

AC wrote:

I suggest anyone unfamiliar with biofuel as an alternative fuel for the ICE research the potential of algae-based oils and other sources. Besides, who ever said we need to replace oil with any one alternative?

I'm interested to see what type of bio fuel we could produce from all of the biomass in the oceans, or what type of bio mass we could quickly produce from the oceans.

We already have plenty of biofuel underwater in the midwest.

Yup, and there are even biofuel plant closings due to high costs of biomass...

http://www.biodieselinvesting.com/biodi … sel-plant/

http://www.bismarcktribune.com/articles … 141354.txt

http://www.energycurrent.com/index.php? … ryid=10735

Additionally, articles like this one appear with some frequency.

http://www.biofuelreview.com/content/view/770/2/

Note that I am NOT against the use of biofuels in any way, shape, or form.  I AM against fuel that costs more in the long run, be those costs at the pump or on my dinner table.

Peter wrote:

MC Escher wrote:

The day I get diagnosed with a terminal illness, a LOT of people are going to die.

Like Corn Farmers?

Do you know how much corn they use just to produce 3 gallons of ethanol?

I don't know how you can stand behind corn based ethanol knowing that.

As soon as you can explain how you can respond to a post that you didn't bother to read carefully, I'll address your issue.

Unless of course you go back to read it carefully and discover that your issue vanishes...

Peter wrote:

MC Escher wrote:

The day I get diagnosed with a terminal illness, a LOT of people are going to die.

Like Corn Farmers?

Do you know how much corn they use just to produce 3 gallons of ethanol?

I don't know how you can stand behind corn based ethanol knowing that.

When you mix in a few juniper berries it sure does taste good!  Is it martini time?