News and Politics Forum

edited because I misread JIMP's post.

Last edited by T (07-22-2008 10:31 PM)

If that's the case then I'm cool with that. I sure as hell didn't read it that way.

Sorry for the knee jerk JIMP.

Oh fine, I sullied the waters and now nobody will play

T, there are a lot of ways your original post can be dealt with but I'm curious to hear what you would accept as a convincing argument.  We can  post scripture (not just Old Testament), we can give context, we can give the expert opinion of the best theologians the world has ever known.  If you let us know what you would accept we can probably provide it.

As a general statement, it doesn't take a scholar to read the Bible and figure out what God's desire is for men and women.  Homosexuality is outside of, and contrary to, most of God's guidance on how people and families should function.  On top of that, He comes right out and tells us not to do it.

Jesus Is My Pilot wrote:

Oh fine, I sullied the waters and now nobody will play

T, there are a lot of ways your original post can be dealt with but I'm curious to hear what you would accept as a convincing argument.  We can  post scripture (not just Old Testament), we can give context, we can give the expert opinion of the best theologians the world has ever known.  If you let us know what you would accept we can probably provide it.

As a general statement, it doesn't take a scholar to read the Bible and figure out what God's desire is for men and women.  Homosexuality is outside of, and contrary to, most of God's guidance on how people and families should function.  On top of that, He comes right out and tells us not to do it.

I'm not looking for anything in particular, I just want to know why it is OK to follow SOME of the bibles commandments and that be OK. Is there a Christian rulebook somewhere I don't know about? There are parts in the bible that tell you not to cut the edges of your hair or beard. It also says people with disabilities can't approach the alter because it would desecrate the sanctuary. If you can ignore those, why not ignore others?

T wrote:

Is there a Christian rulebook somewhere I don't know about?

yes, many of them, which vary by belief.

There are parts in the bible that tell you not to cut the edges of your hair or beard. It also says people with disabilities can't approach the alter because it would desecrate the sanctuary.

Where does it say this? In the OT.

If you can ignore those, why not ignore others?

Understanding of the bible explains this. One of the more laughable insults on Christians is this very attack, it shows that the inquisitor is uninformed on the subject. I am not insulting you, as you are asking a question; rather this is a general observation. In short, they are distinctly separate parts of the bible, and related only in a contextual way that can be understood through careful exegesis.

edit: Zuk was here first.

Last edited by Thundersnow (07-23-2008 01:59 PM)

zukiphile wrote:

What I've gleaned from the fundies I've read on this in the past is that although they hold the whole Bible to more or less literally be true and the word of God, the OT represents the terms of His contract with Jehudis.  JC's amendment to that contract, the OT, binds everyone else, so a baptist can accept food from a menstruating woman, and use lights on fridays.

Welcome to 900.






edit - 901


That's big karma right there.

zukiphile wrote:

Thundersnow wrote:

...it shows that the inquisitor is uninformed on the subject.

Likely why he asked.

Also why I qualified my answer; the derision was directed not at he, but those that use this faux logic as a stepping stone to proving Christianity false.

On the other hand there is also the doctrine that Christianity is a continuation of the same tradition as Judaism and rejects none of its substance.  This is a part of it I've never fully understood, even when people explain it to me.

There are some mutations of this idea too.  Americans slaves sometimes saw themselves as enslaved jews, and some 19th century english cultural artifacts cast England as Israel.

leviticus: 18 'Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against one of your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the LORD.

Matthew 22:38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."


Hebrews 7: 18The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless 19(for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God.

Ephesians 2:11Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called "uncircumcised" by those who call themselves "the circumcision" (that done in the body by the hands of men)— 12remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.
14For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace, 16and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. 17He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. 18For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.


and finally:

Matthew 5:The Fulfillment of the Law

17"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.


The law was consistently broken and had not given eternal life. All of the previous commandments are summed up in Matt 22:38-40. The previous regulations were given to bring people to Christ, which they did not do. This is then fulfilled by the Matt 22:38-40.

Last edited by Thundersnow (07-23-2008 02:25 PM)

Thundersnow wrote:

The law was consistently broken and had not given eternal life. All of the previous commandments are summed up in Matt 22:38-40. The previous regulations were given to bring people to Christ, which they did not do. This is then fulfilled by the Matt 22:38-40.

Though I understand the individual words, I think I don't "get it".

How would a dizzying array of regulations about separate plates and not mixing meat and dairy bring people to a manifestation of God in a man?  That sounds like a bad plan from the outset.

Also, don't both RCs and most prots see jehudis as having their own deal with the Big Guy?

In short, they are distinctly separate parts of the bible, and related only in a contextual way that can be understood through careful exegesis.

HUH?

Based on that explanation, you could take everything in context and distort it to fit your needs.

T wrote:

I'm not looking for anything in particular, I just want to know why it is OK to follow SOME of the bibles commandments and that be OK. Is there a Christian rulebook somewhere I don't know about? There are parts in the bible that tell you not to cut the edges of your hair or beard. It also says people with disabilities can't approach the alter because it would desecrate the sanctuary. If you can ignore those, why not ignore others?

In particular, you are asking the age-old question, "Why do New Testament Christians not follow Old Testament Law?"

Simply stated, it is because we are not Jews.  The Law was given to a specific people for specific reasons, while the general tenor of the Bible is for all of God's people, Jew or Gentile.  This was hashed out after Gentiles started becoming followers of Christ (the original disciples were all (for the most part) Jewish.

Here is one record of that process:

Acts 15:1-31  Some men came down from Judea to Antioch and were teaching the brothers: “Unless you are circumcised, according to the custom taught by Moses, you cannot be saved.”  This brought Paul and Barnabas into sharp dispute and debate with them. So Paul and Barnabas were appointed, along with some other believers, to go up to Jerusalem to see the apostles and elders about this question.  The church sent them on their way, and as they traveled through Phoenicia and Samaria, they told how the Gentiles had been converted. This news made all the brothers very glad.

When they came to Jerusalem, they were welcomed by the church and the apostles and elders, to whom they reported everything God had done through them.  Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to obey the law of Moses.”  The apostles and elders met to consider this question.

After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: “Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe.
God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us.  He made no distinction between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith.  Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear?   No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.”

The whole assembly became silent as they listened to Barnabas and Paul telling about the miraculous signs and wonders God had done among the Gentiles through them.  When they finished, James spoke up: “Brothers, listen to me.   Simon [Peter] has described to us how God at first showed his concern by taking from the Gentiles a people for himself.  The words of the prophets are in agreement with this, as it is written:

” After this I will return and rebuild David's fallen tent.
Its ruins I will rebuild, and I will restore it,
that the remnant of men may seek the Lord,
and all the Gentiles who bear my name,
says the Lord, who does these things’
that have been known for ages.

“It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God.
Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood.  For Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath.”

Then the apostles and elders, with the whole church, decided to choose some of their own men and send them to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas. They chose Judas (called Barsabbas) and Silas, two men who were leaders among the brothers.  With them they sent the following letter:

The apostles and elders, your brothers,
To the Gentile believers in Antioch, Syria and Cilicia:
Greetings.
We have heard that some went out from us without our authorization and disturbed you, troubling your minds by what they said. So we all agreed to choose some men and send them to you with our dear friends Barnabas and Paul–men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Therefore we are sending Judas and Silas to confirm by word of mouth what we are writing.  It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements:

You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things.

Farewell.

The men were sent off and went down to Antioch, where they gathered the church together and delivered the letter.  The people read it and were glad for its encouraging message.

Interestingly, the requirements that were placed on the Gentiles stemmed back to the Covenant God made with Noah after the flood -- and not covenants that happened in the future with the people now called Jews (they, of course, didn't exist until God made a specific covenant with Abraham).  Before the Abrahamic covenant, everyone was in the same boat, and no one specifically was responsible for God's laws as later given by Moses at the time of the Exodus from Egypt with, first, the Ten Commandments, and later, the many laws of Israel.

A second condition also exists that requires a more detailed theological answer, but in short, Jesus became the Law fullfilment on our behalf, and though that does not excuse us from the Law per se, it does mean that our salvation is no longer hinged on a direct cause and effect following of the Law (capitals are designating the actual Law of God versus the many, many oral and traditional laws of the Jews added for political, religious, or other reasons).  In addition, Jesus also took the Law a step deeper -- instead of merely a physical satisfaction of the Law, it was now a matter of the heart, and even thinking thoughts against some portion of the law were incriminating unto death.  Yes, that means that everyone is dead...  But, that is what Jesus and substitutionary atonement was all about - His substitute for our abject failure, which of course requires faith in Christ, and a born-again-from-above experience (prophesied in Joel, Jeremiah, and Isaiah, for starters).

There are other issues, but they swim deeper still.

About homosexuality -- it is EXPRESSLY FORBIDDEN in Scripture, OT and NT, so it goes beyond a mere interpretation of OT law.  An ACTUAL reading of the Bible in plain language leaves no ambiguity on that topic.  It is clear, consise, and absolute, and forbidden.  It takes special pleading and a LOT of dancing around, playing with text out of context, etc., to make the case FOR homosexuality in ANY form.

Let me list a couple simple reasons...

1.  Homosexuality requires sex outside of the bonds of marriage -- which is tacitly forbidden in OT and NT
2.  Homosexuality requires "unnatural" sexual acts between man/man and/or woman/woman -- such are forbidden in OT and NT
3.  Biblical "love" is described in 4 different terms, family, brotherly, godly (unconditional) and sexual (the Greek term underlying this is 'porneia').  In NO case is sexual love offered up as a reason for marriage, etc., and it is specifically forbidden EXCEPT in a man/woman/marriage context.  Though examples exist in the Scripture of violations of that concept, they are not "prescriptive" concepts, but rather "descriptive" in that they describe what people actually did -- but not what God said to do.

glfredrick wrote:

In particular, you are asking the age-old question, "Why do New Testament Christians not follow Old Testament Law?"

Simply stated, it is because we are not Jews.  The Law was given to a specific people for specific reasons, while the general tenor of the Bible is for all of God's people, Jew or Gentile.  This was hashed out after Gentiles started becoming followers of Christ (the original disciples were all (for the most part) Jewish.

I see another question re: the Bible and homosexuality.  Why do so many Christians use the OT, particularly Leviticus, as reason for their belief that God sees homosexuality as an "abomination" while many parts of that same book are largely disregarded?

Raoul Duke wrote:

I see another question re: the Bible and homosexuality.  Why do so many Christians use the OT, particularly Leviticus, as reason for their belief that God sees homosexuality as an "abomination" while many parts of that same book are largely disregarded?

Probably for a couple of reasons.  One is that people, even "Christians", don't know much about the Bible.  Another is that Leviticus has a punchy and concise way of condemning homosexuality.

The way I look at OT laws is to think of The Lord of The Rings.  If you only watch the first of the series and draw all your conclusions from it you will believe the humans are screwed.  You have to watch all three to get the whole story.