News and Politics Forum

Raoul Duke wrote:

I'm unsure just what he wants to accomplish by having a large pep rally in Germany.  Is it likely to impress any voters not already salivating over the opportunity to pull their levers for him?  Or even to vote for him? 

Is it just a way to act presidential?

There is a tradition in US politics that once you step onto foreign land, you do not criticise US foreign policy, the fiction being that although we have our internal differences we all defend the country as one.

WJC was criticised as president for having spoken anti-vietnam words while a student in the UK.  Jimmy Carter broke new ground with his frantic criticism of RR in dealing with the Syrians by means of the USS New Jersey.

BHO speaking at the Brandenburg Gate seems a poor choice on two grounds.  First, he is positioning himself to criticise the US engagement in Iraq from Germany.  Second, he is framing an appeasement and withdrawl argument from a symbol of a country that behaved poorly when appeased.

zukiphile wrote:

BHO speaking at the Brandenburg Gate seems a poor choice on two grounds.  First, he is positioning himself to criticise the US engagement in Iraq from Germany.  Second, he is framing an appeasement and withdrawl argument from a symbol of a country that behaved poorly when appeased.

An excellent point.  It's arrogant while displaying an unseemly ignorance of, or disregard for history. 

Is it the same phenomenon of too many yes men (on staff as well as in the fawning press) that causes celebrities to believe they are incapable of mistakes, or that the rabble are too stupid to notice? 

How else do you explain their comical insistence that this is not a campaign event?

I'm probably just clinging to my hatred of things that are different.

JIMP, yes, that's true, see my post.  The funny thing is he actually picked an even worse venue.

From the link:

Still, even as the issue of his speech's location has now been settled, a number of politicians in Berlin are still dissatisfied with the site. The Siegessäule -- or Victory Column -- was erected in memory of Prussia's victories over Denmark (1864), Austria (1866) and France (1870/71). The column originally stood in front of the Reichstag, Germany's parliament building, but was moved by Adolf Hitler to its current location in 1939 to make way for his planned transformation of Berlin into the Nazi capital "Germania."

"The Siegessäule in Berlin was moved to where it is now by Adolf Hitler. He saw it as a symbol of German superiority and of the victorious wars against Denmark, Austria and France," the deputy leader of the Free Democrats, Rainer Brüderle, told Bild am Sonntag. He raised the question as to "whether Barack Obama was advised correctly in his choice of the Siegessäule as the site to hold a speech on his vision for a more cooperative world."

Andreas Schockenhoff of Chancellor Angela Merkel's Christian Democrats said, "the Siegessäule in Berlin is dedicated to a victory over neighbors who are today our European friends and allies. It is a problematic symbol."

Hehehehehehehehehhehehehe,

Qwinn

Last edited by Qwinn (07-23-2008 03:40 PM)

zukiphile wrote:

Jesus Is My Pilot wrote:

My morning drive was dominated with their reports of how much Germany likes Obama.

By history, it is a very tolerant place.

I wonder how Hasselhoff feels about the whole thing.

devilether96 wrote:

i guess if you're looking to give some kind of big, well choreographed speech in front of tens of thousands (i've heard attendance could get up near 100K) of adoring fans/supporters, what better place to do it than Germany? they used to put on splendid events back in the day, well filmed too if that video footage I saw is any indicator.

Perhaps he can resurrect Leni Riefenstahl.

Qwinn wrote:

Perhaps he can rehabilitate Leni Riefenstahl.

Hollywood already did that a couple of Oscar award shows ago.

Oh.  You said "resurrect"!  Sorry bout that.

Qwinn

She was an outstanding filmmaker, regardless of her films' content.

Oh, sorry to interrupt your little petulance routine.

And the Victory Column, BFD. Complaining about that is akin to the dumb Quebecers that were whining about Paul McCartney performing at Québec's 400th anniversary, because the British defeated the French forces at the plains of Abraham. Boo hoo.

axe wrote:

dumb Quebecers

Is this like the blonde Swedes?

And the Victory Column, BFD. Complaining about that is akin to the dumb Quebecers that were whining about Paul McCartney performing at Québec's 400th anniversary, because the British defeated the French forces at the plains of Abraham. Boo hoo.

Uh, no, I think that's an absurd comparison.  Unless somewhere along the line Paul McCartney was cast in plaster and dubbed to specifically memorialize that British defeat against the French forces.  If that's the case, then yeah, spot on comparison.

Qwinn

Never heard of it before.  Googling is pretty much getting me only italian links.  What does it memorialize, and what foreign dignitaries have given speeches there?

Qwinn

I don't know about dignitary speeches, but the Italians hate it so much they're currently restoring it.

I see.  But I don't think the germans are complaining about Obama's choice of venue because it offends -them-, I think they're concerned about it offending folks from countries that the germans conquered in the battles that monument memorializes.  I think the monument to fascism you're bringing up would also be a pretty poor choice of venue for a foreign leader to speechify in front of, from the perspective of the victims of fascism.  I don't think that's an unwarranted whine, and I think the "whiny" germans are being appropriately considerate.

Qwinn

We're talking about something that happened 150 years ago. For someone who constantly rails against political correctness, you sure seem fond of it this morning.

Is that me being politically correct?  Eh.  I suppose in a way.  It just seemed to me to be a dumb choice for venue.  I think the part you're missing is how it was moved to its present location and used by Hitler as a national symbol.

I also find Hollywood actresses going around with Che Guevara handbags to be loathsome.  Does that make me PC too?

Qwinn

axe wrote:

And in any case, Obama will be hailed as a hero in Europe --

Hopefully this will wake up a few people here. 

Given the direction much of Europe is taking currently the last thing we need is a leader in the U.S. who wants us to be just like Europe.